Mr. TURNER. ……Mr. Tom Pettit of NBC, which was our newsman
from NBC. He was hollering to me, "Tell them in New York to give it to me."
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you would go live on the national?
Mr. TURNER. That's right. We'd go live on the national network.
from NBC. He was hollering to me, "Tell them in New York to give it to me."
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you would go live on the national?
Mr. TURNER. That's right. We'd go live on the national network.
RC: So, another urgent call to go live when all it was was Oswald being walked 30 feet to a car and then driven away.
Mr. Turner: So, I was talking on the direct line to him. The police car left out sometime in that
excitement, going up the exit the wrong way. I mean the entrance the wrong
way.
Mr. HUBERT. Going up towards Main Street?
Mr. TURNER. That's right, which was different from the one, because we had
always seen them come down it, and that was the first time we noticed them
going out of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that car have any difficulty going up?
Mr. TURNER Come to think of it, I think he did. I remember a lot of wheels
spinning or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyway, what you are saying is, that the movement of that car
attracted your attention, is that correct?
Mr. TURNER. There was some brakes squealing or tires spinning at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow with your eyes?
Mr. TURNER. I followed him as far as I could now, there was some more
commotion started a little before that of them bringing a truck in, backing
an armored truck in from the exit side of it, which they were having a
difficult job of getting this truck in. Now, this all happened--I can't
tell you the exact time, because it is all vague in my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back to the police car going up the Main Street ramp
towards Main Street, did you follow it with your eyes?
Mr. TURNER. I followed it not only to about a point to where the drive had
started up, because it was impossible----
Mr. HUBERT. To the point where the ramp starts to go up?
Mr. TURNER. Uphill, the slope up, which was this column here had sort of
blocked our view from----
….and, I was standing up at the front of point "4", on the left side
of the camera, which was right next to the column. Jack Beers from the
Dallas Morning News, who took the picture before he was shot--not the picture
after he shot him, was immediately--I was touching him with my left arm,
and I had mentioned to Jack, I said, "Jack, when I swing around for them to
lead him into the truck up there, well, I'll hit you on the knee, if--and
would you get out of the way?"
And Jack said, "Yes." So--this all took place so quick from now on. And then
after I got through talking with Jack, I was--Tom was trying to attract my
attention. I happened to glance up and this was at the same time the car
drove out of the--I'm not sure. I couldn't--that right down where the ramp
it hit--the----
Mr. HUBERT. Level part?
Mr. TURNER. Level part. I saw Mr. Ruby coming in.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, had you ever seen him before?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I certainly hadn't. Let me mark "10" as the point where
I actually saw Mr. Ruby.
excitement, going up the exit the wrong way. I mean the entrance the wrong
way.
Mr. HUBERT. Going up towards Main Street?
Mr. TURNER. That's right, which was different from the one, because we had
always seen them come down it, and that was the first time we noticed them
going out of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that car have any difficulty going up?
Mr. TURNER Come to think of it, I think he did. I remember a lot of wheels
spinning or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyway, what you are saying is, that the movement of that car
attracted your attention, is that correct?
Mr. TURNER. There was some brakes squealing or tires spinning at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow with your eyes?
Mr. TURNER. I followed him as far as I could now, there was some more
commotion started a little before that of them bringing a truck in, backing
an armored truck in from the exit side of it, which they were having a
difficult job of getting this truck in. Now, this all happened--I can't
tell you the exact time, because it is all vague in my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back to the police car going up the Main Street ramp
towards Main Street, did you follow it with your eyes?
Mr. TURNER. I followed it not only to about a point to where the drive had
started up, because it was impossible----
Mr. HUBERT. To the point where the ramp starts to go up?
Mr. TURNER. Uphill, the slope up, which was this column here had sort of
blocked our view from----
….and, I was standing up at the front of point "4", on the left side
of the camera, which was right next to the column. Jack Beers from the
Dallas Morning News, who took the picture before he was shot--not the picture
after he shot him, was immediately--I was touching him with my left arm,
and I had mentioned to Jack, I said, "Jack, when I swing around for them to
lead him into the truck up there, well, I'll hit you on the knee, if--and
would you get out of the way?"
And Jack said, "Yes." So--this all took place so quick from now on. And then
after I got through talking with Jack, I was--Tom was trying to attract my
attention. I happened to glance up and this was at the same time the car
drove out of the--I'm not sure. I couldn't--that right down where the ramp
it hit--the----
Mr. HUBERT. Level part?
Mr. TURNER. Level part. I saw Mr. Ruby coming in.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, had you ever seen him before?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I certainly hadn't. Let me mark "10" as the point where
I actually saw Mr. Ruby.
RC: Now, let's consider that James Bookhout had to get into that garage, and it had to be at the last minute because he certainly didn't want to be seen and recognized as James Bookhout. So, why not have him come down the ramp? It was perfect because it got him in there, and at the same time, it framed Jack Ruby for doing it at that time, even though Ruby did it much earlier.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order to get it right, would you look at the mockup first,
and then place it.
Mr. TURNER. I was right here [indicating], and he was somewhere in this
locality when--it is beyond the second column.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you mark a
line, and mark it "A" and "B" straight across
at the beginning on the right?
Mr. TURNER. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have marked a line, having compared it with the mockup,
and you have marked it "A-B".
Mr. TURNER. That is the beginning of the----
Mr. HUBERT. Of the rise?
Mr. TURNER. That's right. I might be a little off there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you say you saw Jack Ruby. You had not known him to be Jack
Ruby at that time?
Mr. TURNER. No; what set him off from other men was the hat he was wearing.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of hat was it?
Mr. TURNER. I don't know the technical name. Could you help me out? It was
a felt hat, had a pretty large brim on it, and it was a--round on top, which
you seldom see.
Mr. HUBERT. Snap brim?
Mr. TURNER. No; it wasn't snap brim. It was just a wide brim, and like you
say, I didn't go that far.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what color it was?
Mr. TURNER. It seemed to be grey.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe any other clothing?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; he was, to my knowledge he was dressed in an overcoat, or
long--it could have been a suit coat, but I didn't notice.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a fair look at his face?
Mr. TURNER. At an angle that I do not recognize him now. He seemed to be
much heavier then than when I saw him in the Ruby trial.
RC: Jesus, Mary, and Joseph! This is gold! That's it! They had Bookhout come down that very same ramp! And he was, indeed, much heavier than Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you mark the position where you saw this man, marking it
with the next number?
Mr. TURNER. All right. Let's see. "10."
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that that man that you saw at position "10", was
Jack Ruby?
Mr. TURNER. I certainly do.
Mr. HUBERT. He was coming down the Main Street ramp at that time?
Mr. TURNER. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. He was moving?
Mr. TURNER. He was moving at that time but this man looks like Ruby, but he
seemed to be heavier than I see him now. I don't know whether it is an
allusion, being in a dark place----
with the next number?
Mr. TURNER. All right. Let's see. "10."
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that that man that you saw at position "10", was
Jack Ruby?
Mr. TURNER. I certainly do.
Mr. HUBERT. He was coming down the Main Street ramp at that time?
Mr. TURNER. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. He was moving?
Mr. TURNER. He was moving at that time but this man looks like Ruby, but he
seemed to be heavier than I see him now. I don't know whether it is an
allusion, being in a dark place----
RC: Holy Virgin Mother of God! He said it again! Heavier than Ruby! Heavier than Ruby! Heavier than Ruby!
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man come out from the crowd and shoot Oswald?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that man the same man that you have----
Mr. TURNER. It was this same man.
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that man the same man that you have----
Mr. TURNER. It was this same man.
RC: Damn straight it was the same man: James W. Bookhout.
Mr. HUBERT. That you have marked as "10"?
Mr. TURNER. As "10". It was the same man, and came out and shot him from "10".
Mr. HUBERT. So, that if it were Jack Ruby who shot Oswald, it was Jack Ruby
at place number "10"?
Mr. TURNER. That's right. Right. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting was it that you saw a man in
position number "10" there in a circle on the ramp?
Mr. TURNER. It was not more than 15 to 30 seconds.
Mr. TURNER. There was only a matter of 4 seconds, or 5 seconds, when he
arrived there that--until Oswald reached the point where he was assassinated.
Mr. TURNER. As "10". It was the same man, and came out and shot him from "10".
Mr. HUBERT. So, that if it were Jack Ruby who shot Oswald, it was Jack Ruby
at place number "10"?
Mr. TURNER. That's right. Right. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting was it that you saw a man in
position number "10" there in a circle on the ramp?
Mr. TURNER. It was not more than 15 to 30 seconds.
Mr. TURNER. There was only a matter of 4 seconds, or 5 seconds, when he
arrived there that--until Oswald reached the point where he was assassinated.
RC: Wow! These times are even smaller than I assumed. So, it was only 4 or 5 seconds that Bookhout waited amidst the swarm before it was time to attack. Well, Bookhout didn't really attack, of course, but he pretended to. He put on a show.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw Ruby arrive at the front?
Mr. TURNER. That's right. He walked up to--see, this is all in line, from
our camera position to our--there were--they were just a little back of the
side light from our camera to our newscaster----
Mr. HUBERT. But you are willing to say that he was standing at the front
row of the group of people congregated there for possibly 5 seconds before
he moved forward to shoot Oswald?
Mr. TURNER. That's right, that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, let's get a little bit more.about this period for
Jack Ruby to move from the position you have marked "10", to the position
you have marked "12", when he was standing in the front line. Did he have to
go through any great mass of people?
Mr. TURNER No, not to my knowledge, because I didn't see a great number of
men up in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have to push, or shoulder his way up there?
Mr. TURNER. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He could just walk up and get into that position?
Mr. TURNER. That's right. There was some more men out there in this area,
but I can't connect it at this point.
Mr. HUBERT. What I want to get at, from what you tell me the group was not
such that he would have to bulldoze his way through?
Mr. TURNER. No; he just flat walked up.
Mr. HUBERT. Just once again for the record. There can be no doubt in your
mind but the man now identified as Jack Ruby is the man you saw at position
"10"?
Mr. TURNER. Correct.
RC: Notice that Mr. Hubert did not query about the man looking fatter than Ruby. He wasn't interested. It reminds me of Joseph Ball, who when Fritz told him that Oswald said he was eating lunch with other employees during the shooting, had no interest in finding out who those employees were.
Anyway, it is clear to me now, and precisely because of this testimony, that fat Bookhout walked down the ramp. Ruby did too, but it was half an hour to one hour before.
Anyway, it is clear to me now, and precisely because of this testimony, that fat Bookhout walked down the ramp. Ruby did too, but it was half an hour to one hour before.
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